Dr. Vidya Sagar did his schooling in Lyallpur (now in Faisalabad, Pakistan; he graduated from Government College, Lahore, commenced his studies at Law College, Lahore, and continued at the University of Delhi (L.L.B), La Sorbonne, Paris, Lincoln's Inn, London (Barrister at Law) and The Free University, Berlin.
He has been practicing law since 1952, now under the name and style of Remfry and Sagar, specialising in Intellectual Property and Corporate Law.
Dr Sagar is widely travelled and is multilingual. His interests include music, painting, and history. The Sagar School is the fulfilment of a dream he had in Lyallpur in 1941 as a teenager. It is there that he realised the role that a good school - and moreover a boarding school (as his own school was) could, and should, play in the character building of young people.
Dr Sagar I was 14 years old and living in a boarding school that was in a place called Layallpur. I loved living in the school. I was very poor at that time; I had a scholarship of Rs.3/- a month on which I lived. Out of this, I paid Rs.2.5/- to the boarding school, and 8 Annas (half a rupee) was left for my pocket money. In those days, a rupee had a lot of value. And I decided, to myself, that one day when I am a rich man, I would build a school, and it would be a boarding school. At that time, the idea of 'international' never came to my mind because my own horizon was very small. I knew my little town. I knew about my boarding school, and I knew I liked the life there. So, it was OK. The ideas - intercultural, international- came much later. Then, as you know, I went abroad. I studied in England, France and Germany. The world has become much smaller now, we talk of globalisation. So, the idea came much later that the school I wanted to build must be an international school. It is a fulfilment of an ambition of my childhood.
Dr Sagar Apoorva, I was living in a boarding house. So, I thought, this is where young people can learn, develop their lives. What better medium than a school? I was concerned with the coming generation. You are my coming generation. So, this is why a school. And quite frankly, I feel there is nothing better than imparting education to the people. It's good to give them health and other facilities but giving education, in my opinion, should be the primary objective of life.
Dr Sagar You are absolutely right. I left home when I was fourteen years old, and I felt if one is away from home, he has to take a lot of decisions for himself. For example, if you want to buy a new shirt, some reading material, or music, you don't have to ask your parents. And that gives you a stepping stone to make further decisions in your life later.
If you are a young woman/man, whom you want to marry, whom you don't want to marry-these are all the important decisions. And if you have to look to your father and mother all the time, it's no good at all. I think if I am a grown-up person of 18 years, I should take these decisions myself. That's important!
My daughter was 15 years old, I said, "Rosemary, my dear girl, you are now a grown-up woman, you better go on your own." And I never regretted it, never. She went to England on her own; she went from there to Boston, USA, and stayed there for 4 years. On her own, she went to Columbia and developed her career.
Dr Sagar Everything! I think that's very important.
Dr Sagar This again came from my experience in my boarding school in Lyallpur. The school was about 6-7 miles away from the town. It was really in the 'middle of nowhere'. There was no population around, no habitation; there was nothing around except one Ashram, which was 2 miles away. So, I really loved it.
Let's take an example. If The Sagar School had been within the reach of Gurgaon or Delhi, my God, you would be running to the Mall all day - Pizza places and all. So, my idea was to have a school away from it all, where we help you to develop a personality undisturbed by any other influence. I still believe that if I have to build another school ever, though I don't want to, I will do exactly the same thing as I have done today. When the school was set up here, there was no water, electricity, telephone, nothing. Today, we have developed on our own. We are not tied to any town. We have our own personality. In my opinion, people who spend money on education don't do it ideally. They are doing a good job, but I think the most ideal part is to take the school to the 'middle of nowhere' and then help build their personality.
Don't you like the air in the school? Don't you like the water in the school? Don't you like the night sky in school?
Dr Sagar Now, if you were living in Delhi, even if it was in a boarding school, you would not even see the stars.
Dr Sagar So, you agree there. It fits in with my dreams.
Dr Sagar It came from my sister. My sister was a good teacher. She knew Sanskrit very well. I asked her what the basic motto should be. It's a world full of knowledge and the school's motto must indicate that. So, we all take you in the direction of knowledge. I think it's a good motto. Here, 'knowledge, knowledge, knowledge' is our motto.
Dr Sagar I started my law education in Lahore in Pakistan, came to India, and finished my law studies here. I went to France and stayed there for a couple of months. Then I went to England for 3 years and went to Germany to do my doctorate in law. All of these countries influenced me greatly in my cultural outlook. At heart, I am 101% Indian. I love my country and culture, I want to maintain that but one should not be afraid of imbibing good points from other cultures. So, I intend to really imbibe whatever I can from other countries.
Dr Sagar Absolutely! Why are we allowing foreign children to come here now? We have got a good collection. We have few from Thailand, Korea, and four from China; they are children of friends of mine. And now we are getting some from Germany as well.
This, I think, is good in two ways. One, you will learn a lot from them. You will be surprised, but even the small things matter a lot. For example, how they wash their hands, how they bathe, how they eat? I don't want you to copy them, but I do want you to pick up their good points. By the same token, they come and learn our culture. How do we behave ourselves? How we eat? Why do we eat the way we eat? Eating with hands, in my opinion, is the most human part. Three or four hundred years ago, even the Europeans used to eat with their hands. They would take food with their hands, tear it up, and eat it. The use of the fork and knife came with the industrial revolution. The hands of people who work in the factories, their hands were dirty.
Dr Sagar Now it's become fashion. What I'm trying to say is that we have a lot to learn from European culture but they have a lot to learn from us also. Unfortunately, today, we are learning more from them than they are learning from us (laughs). But this was the whole concept.
Dr Sagar I'll tell you just one story about how I learnt about European culture that will prove my point. I knew an English boy, his name was Bill Shaw. Bill and I decided to take a room together. I was surprised that as an Englishman, he agreed and said, 'No, Sagar, I like you. Let's have a room together.' We paid 22 shillings 6 pence a week as our rent. In the night time, I used to study, I used to study very hard indeed. Just imagine, 12 o' clock in the night I'm busy studying and Bill had gone to sleep already. I worked until 3 in the morning. Bill, who was sleeping in the bed next to me, would never say that he was feeling cold and that he needed something to warm him up. He would get up himself and take something to put on his bed to warm him up. Self-help! This has impressed me so much all my life. Now, if I am sitting here and I want to pick up something, I never ring a bell and say, “Somebody, come over here and pick it up.” No way! At home, I never call my servant. No way! I do it myself. Self-help! I'll give you one small example. I learnt discipline really in Germany. The way the Germans keep their house, why are German wives supposed to be the best in the world? Because they are good housekeepers. When you are a mother or a grandmother, you will learn the value of good housekeeping. Everything in perfect order, everything maintained very well indeed.
Dr Sagar Absolutely! My whole life is made of these small incidents. Now, I take pride in my office. You will never find my table dirty or my papers out of order. No way! Everything in its proper place. It becomes a part of your nature.
Dr Sagar Our culture was also good. Our culture was spoiled under colonial rule for over 300 years because a colonial power has no interest in the education of a colonised country. They just want people to work on the land, produce raw material which they can export and make money. They are not interested that you become an engineer. Now, we have a lot to learn from others, and we'll continue learning.
Dr Sagar Anyway, I am not interested in our school getting overcrowded. Then you can't attend to each and every person. I don't want to make it a mass production school. No way!
Dr Sagar Well, as I told you, it's in the middle of nowhere. That's the physical aspect. But number two, we emphasise more international interaction. But most of all, it's our policy which is different. I am a very successful man in my life. I have earned a lot of money. This school will NOT make one penny as a profit. No way at all! We'll keep our fees exactly at the level where we can cover up costs. That's the difference in our philosophy, in financial matters, and in physical presence and in every other way.
Dr Sagar Not at all. We'll create elites. But we won't have them. I just want middle-class people to increase their standard of intellect. That's what is important for me. I was a poor man myself. Even today, I am poor because all the money I earn goes to the school and a new project. I asked my accountant this morning, there are around 2 lakhs of rupees in my account. If you think that is rich, I'll give it away. (Laughs) I don't care for that at all.
Dr Sagar The philosophy from day one was that I will provide all the capital expenditure. The school is going to cost 75 crores at the end of the day. It's a lot of money. We have already spent, I think, 45-46. We already have enough reserves to carry out the next expansion of the school. That will start now. All this money has to come from some source, and I'm providing the source. However, I refused from day one to give money for the working of the school. Not to give scholarships. I said scholarships must come from the school's fund. So, the day we start making a little surplus, we'll provide scholarships. But in the meantime, we already have about 10 scholarships going, and we already have the promise of so many more scholarships. Fortunately, I have a lot of contacts in the industry, and all the scholarships are coming from them. But I won't give a scholarship from the school's revenue fund while in deficit. That means, indirectly, you are providing for the scholarship.
Dr Sagar If in the future you are going to deal with a man as your brother, father, or husband, you should get used to that right now. These are your younger years. I strongly believe in the equality of girls and boys. When I look at my own family, my daughter has done so well. She became a managing director at the age of 35 of a very large bank in the U.S. I believe that women have as much intellect as men. I don't have any doubt about this at all. Therefore, it was clear to me that it had to be a co-educational school. I am sorry that we don't have enough girls today. But they will come. Don't you feel that interacting with boys improves your outlook on life?
Dr Sagar Not only that, but you talk as an equal. That's how it should be.
Dr Sagar Absolutely, let them know that. I'm very happy that we did it that way.
Dr Sagar And you're making a good mark. And I'm very happy that we have girls and boys of various countries. You have dealt with girls from Korea, we have one girl from China, and you have girls all the time coming from Germany and so on. That gives you an idea. Otherwise, you'll say, my God, these people are superior to us. But when you deal with them, you see they are like you. If you have to go to Europe tomorrow you won't feel hesitant at all.
Dr Sagar That's important. We are now increasing the exchange programmes and we'll be more active. That's excellent. Good for them, good for you.
Dr Sagar I am glad that our school is getting more personalised on the individual level. If you go to Germany, automatically the girl will say, “Come, stay with me.”
Dr Sagar Each one of them. If I hadn't dreamt, I wouldn't be where I am, and you wouldn't be where you are. If I didn't have determination, I wouldn't carry it through. Right from the day I started earning in 1960, I have been collecting money for the school. I used to mention to my wife in Germany, about the school. She always thought I was crazy.
Dr Sagar Well, nobody takes it very seriously if you talk about dreams. She thought the same way. I was determined, and I didn't even tell her that I was collecting money for it. I opened up about it in July 1994 and said that I was going to build a school. That was the day when I thought I had collected one-third of the expenditure the school would have. At that time, our consultants had told us the school would cost 12 Crores of rupees, I thought to myself, not 12 but maybe 15. So, on 27th July 1994, I had 5 crores in the bank. That's the day I went to the Chief Minister of Rajasthan, Mr. Bhairon Singh Shekhawat, and I told him about my project. So, that is the determination.
Dr Sagar Otherwise, I won't be where I am. I am very happy I have brought up a good family, a good law firm- Remfry & Sagar. We are one of the top firms in the world today. I have brought up a school, and I am now going to do another non-profit cultural project.
Dr Sagar You have to. Don't think you will become secretary to a boss. You'll become the boss. That is 'Dreaming BIG', especially for women today. In every society, women have been treated as unequal, more so in India. Women, in our old days played a very large part. They brought up very healthy families. Now, we have certain occupations where women can do much better. For example - doctors, IT specialists, managers. However, not at the cost of family life. My daughter has two children: fantastic children. My daughter is doing very well. Now, she is a consultant. They live in New York. So, in my opinion, women have a very large part to play. In any country, if womenfolk don't work together with men, the standard of living will remain low. One index of progress: working women. But not at the cost of family life. Women are more suited to raise a family than men.
Dr Sagar I can't complain. I am doing very well. I am serving the industry with my professional help. I am not acting like a broker who is helping the industry indirectly. Ours is direct professional help. That makes me very happy. Ours is a very useful profession.
Dr Sagar Well, we protect what is called 'intellectual property'. Let's say you develop something new. You have a right to have a monopoly over it for some time. You have to be rewarded for your invention. Our job is to protect those inventions. By the same token, if you develop a trademark 'Apoorva', it can't be registered as a trademark at all because it's a name. But let's say ‘Opusam’ and you create a very big business making household utensils. You have a right to protect it, that nobody copies it. Similarly, copyrights. If you write a lovely book and someone copies it. Even as a fashion designer, if you have a design, you have a right to protect it. So, our job is to protect all these things, which are collectively called 'intellectual property'.
Dr Sagar I'm now 81, and I have got the next project in mind. The school is almost complete. The school will meet its deficit in another 2 years, and losses will be covered with the reserves. Even then, there is enough money for the next phase of construction.
Dr Sagar Yes, another dream project is on the way now. It started last week and will take a few years to develop.
Dr Sagar I think every student should have something in view. I believe that in your heart, you should know what profession suits you the best- doctor, engineer, architect, manager, whatever.
I was eight years old when I decided I would become a lawyer. There was an opportunity to go to court, and I was very impressed. I saw the lawyers going to judges and presenting their cases. I said, 'Aha! That's what I'll do. ' Not once have I deviated. It has never occurred to me that I should have been something else other than a lawyer.
You can deviate a little bit these days. But generally speaking, you should know- whether you like Science, or you want to be a scientist or a doctor. If the figures impress me very much, I could become a good accountant. In Accountancy, of course, you have a few professions to look for, such as actuary, auditor, tax consultant, bank, and many more.
So, I believe a young person, whether girl or boy, can discover at a very early age what suits her/him better. Someone might be very artistic, so he or she can become a fashion designer or a painter. There is so much to do in life. So, you should be able to decide very early in life what you can do. And then of course, within that range, you can decide on the exact profession quite easily.
Dr Sagar Determination, hard work, you must have a destination, and honest hard work. No doubt in my mind that you will succeed at the end of the day.
Dr Sagar Yes, true to yourself. Lots of people are not determined. They dilly-dally in life. They play with their lives. And most especially the years starting from 17-18 until about 25. These are the most crucial in your life. Not many people realize that. If you lose those years, you're gone. They are the foundation years in every way. A little while ago, I was giving my friends a lecture about health. It's the same story. Those are the very crucial years when you can lay a good foundation for your health. By the same token, you can lay the foundation for your career. That's the time, for example, if you want to get married, you select a good husband. During interviews, I can always figure out how old they are, however, I am more concerned with their mental age than their physical age. Boys come to me at the age of 27; they want to learn a new profession. I say, 'Too late! Forget about it.’ How old are you now?
Dr Sagar Just about the time when you start thinking seriously. Make sure you select the right subjects. Make sure you get to know the right type of boys. Don't think of marriage right now, but take time. Start exercising now so that you can develop your health.
Dr Sagar It's human, just human. If I have to talk to you, I will not ring a bell and say 'come over'. If I have other people sitting and discussing the same topic. I'll say, 'Apoorva, will you come and join us?” Otherwise, no way. I never call anybody to my room. I even walk up to my secretary.
Dr Sagar I don't allow them to stand up in my presence. I think it's human respect. If I have respect for you, you'll have respect for me. Mutual respect. I don't have to show that I'm the boss. I go to everybody's room, and they stand up. I turn around and say, “I'm not coming here. You first sit down, then I'll come.” These are habits I want you to develop: a bit of courtesy to each other, humility, and humanity. In my opinion, many people are egoistic and demand respect without deserving it. We should really show by our respect for them that they should respect us.
Dr Sagar Many. I was very active. How many instances do you want? (Laughs) One day, I saw a nice orchard outside the school. The mangoes were ripe. I told the boys in my hostel, “My god, these mangoes will fall down, so let's go attack.” We did. My headmaster knew who the culprit was. The next morning, without asking anyone, he asked me, "Where are the mangoes?" I said, "Sir, I never tell a lie. They were so tempting, and they were about to fall. It would have been a loss to you and me.” He said, “Ok, go.”
I still remember back in 1942, one morning I had my Chemistry exam and at 11 p.m. I got fed up. I had studied the whole day. So, I collected all the boys with me and I said, "Come on boys! Let's go! There is a ganna (sugarcane) field one mile away. Let's go attack it." We went and cut the gannas, and in the morning, the pile from the chewed gannas was really high.
But, even today, if somebody does this type of thing in my school, I wouldn't mind at all. It brings out the youth in you in a big way.
My school life was very active indeed. My teacher used to say, “You are a born leader.”
Make sure you don't harm anybody. But if within the realm of 'no harm' you do naughty things, that's OK. You shouldn't do things at the cost of someone else.
Dr Sagar (Laughs) I'll tell you where it comes from. I have had great experiences in my life. You'll be surprised. The moment you mention something to me; it comes back to me. Mention 1953, and I'll tell you, "I did that." I always connect dates with an incident in my life. Those incidents are normally humorous. For example, I went to Paris in 1980. I got down from the railway station and was waiting for a taxi. There was a long queue, so I thought, "There's no point standing there." I stood outside and a taxi driver came to me. He was a private taxi wallah. He said, “Monsieur, you want taxi?”
I said, "Yes. I want to go to Rue La Bruyere. How much?"
He said, "Only 375 Francs."
Rue La Bruyere was only 20 minutes to walk, and because I had a suitcase with me, I didn't want to walk. I looked into his eyes and said, "Monsieur, I don't want to buy your taxi." He felt so small and went away.
Dr Sagar For example, you go into a restaurant, and it's very cold because the air- conditioning is too much. I never say, “Please lower the air-conditioner.” I call the manager and say, "Can you please send me a blanket?"
I am sure you have experienced the same thing. You go to a restaurant, and they ask, "Sir, would you like to have mineral water?" You know what I say, "Tell me about your water. Is it safe?" "Oh? Very safe!" I say, “Then give me ‘your' water. You can achieve much more in life by humour than by arguing. That comes with experience.
Another one is that, if you want to buy an ice cream and there are four of you and you want to try it. Ask: "Can I have one ice cream, please, and four spoons?" Rather than saying that we want to share, this also works very well. They understand right away (laughs).